ForumsQuestionsHandling over 150 Projects
Handling over 150 Projects
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Molaris |
I have implemented GTD for a 1 year on a paper based version and I intend to go online. On Paper I have:
- Project List - Next Action List by Context (Wrok PC, Phone, Staff Meeting...) - Waiting List - Someday Maybe List - Calender Im currenty handling over 150 Projects (own and staff) and I'm wondering what's he best way to implement GTD into Toodledo. I have upgraded to Premium Account and I have also the IPhone TD. For me is important to see on the iphone on the single task what is the related project. So on what level should i implement Projects: Folder = Project and Task = Next Action? Task = Project and Subtask = Next Action? For my weekly reviews i need to see all the projects at a glance (Iphone & Internet). Thanks for your help. |
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TheGriff_2 |
I'm implementing my projects as tasks with next actions being subtasks.
On the iPhone you will see the "Parent" task at the bottom of the list of fields for each next action. On the web you can click the parent task icon to have the parent task instantly shown. To hide the parent again simply click on the current context tab again. If you create your Projects (parent tasks) in a _Project context you'll have a tab in the Context view that will show you all you need at weekly review time. This will work on the iPhone too. |
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Molaris |
Thanks for your feedback. I see the related parent task only when i click on the single task at the bottom. But when i for instance click on the Hotlist view (iphone) and see a list of 20 items i need to see directly on this list the related Project/Partent.
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TheGriff_2 |
In that case I think I'd add a tag with the project name to each task. My understanding is Toodledo staff is working on functionality that will help aleveiate the manual typing you'll need to do but that's not out yet.
You could then sort by tag within the iPhone app and you quickly see what project the task is under. Using the sorting mechanism you could also switch to the folder for project method and sort by folder. There are three things that I think make that a "bad" method. 1. You don't get the notes field per project that let's you create a mission for the project, etc. I suppose you could add the first task to house that info but to me it's clunky. 2. Folders take more steps to create than tags. 3. I use folders to keep track of clients and that may be something you'd like to do. That said I think you have to decide what is best for you. Now that I think about it the folder method would seems better for you until Toodledo makes tag copy from parent possible. |
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Anders |
I use parent tasks as Projects, but I agree with TheGriff here. While there are numerous advantages to using Toodledo that way, for what you have specified you are looking for, it will probably be easier for you to go with Folders as Projects.
~Anders |
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lite1 |
Molaris ... I'm quite new, yet committed to TD - tried other progs, and this one has power, flexibility, and is evolving quickly, and has great forum people. Re-reading GTD but only semi-committed to its approach; yet your ? is not totally exclusive to GTD. A few thoughts, suggestions, and perhaps if they think it relevant The Griff and Anders who have much greater familiarity with TD might comment.
1) Don't really know enough to make a clear suggestion. My own inclination would be to project my own tentative system onto your situation and like The Griff suggest that Parent tasks be the Project with Subtasks being the what's needed to accomplish it and Status (Next Action) as a parameter to always(if you are committed to GTD)fill in. How many of your Projects are recurring? are ongoing for more than a month, and of the latter how likely and how often would you be adding additional subtasks to it? Will your staff be using TD as well? How will you get assignments to them? What do they need to see - what might you want to keep private? I expect that TD has the power to work for you, however a good structure for you may take time to evolve. FWIW, I also am typing my parent tasks starting with a "+" sign and then in all CAPS. The + always makes it clear to me that there is at least one subtask and the caps help me visually if a particular screen presentation shows subtasks unnested from Parent. 2) Before committing to an approach I'd mock-up perhaps 5 or 6 Projects and start to try it out. There is probably no one best approach for you just a set of trade offs. And what might seem good at first might not scale as well to your 150 projects e.g. I can't imagine dealing with 150 folders both creating them, assigning them, finding what I want to view etc. 3) I think I understand the core value of the GTD Next Action list; I am currently handling that by using TD Status and am surprised that the suggestions above do NOT mention Status as part of their suggestion to you. Perhaps it is too obvious, but want to make sure that you are aware of that parameter that is built in. 4) How often do you think you are going to use Search feature in TD? or Multi task entry feature? My own inclination as I am setting up my system is to include a fair amount in the task name e.g. email printer instructions for X51 VW verify hyperlinks 4 includes NW rather than use tags e.g._Valley Web or _New Website which obviously could also be abbreviated by VW or NW (as as I have done in the task name. Disadvantages are: I loose some power in Searching; if subtask name is too long I don't see the data until I hover over it. Advantages: for me quicker to enter things in multi task when doing a brain dump. 5) If you do make Folder for each Project figure out before committing to that, how you'll quickly get to the Folder you want. In TD you can use the number keys 1-9 to move through the first set of tabs on screen. I find that I use that a lot; and personally feel more relaxed about my life having only 11 folders (All Task Zapp Biz EA JA Send Rcv Maybe Ref Goals No Folder). I opted for > simplicity as I feel that gives me more power than the alternative I had tried (Folder for each significant proj - meaning has > 5 subtasks). Latter seemed to offer more organization but for me quickly got too complicated to actually use quickly and hence lost its power/usefulness. Look forward to reading how your system is evolving as all of us are looking to cut each other's learning curves. Edward |
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Proximo |
Toodledo does not handle projects and any implementation you do will be a work around. This is the one Major improvement I have been waiting on.
I do agree with TheGriff on how to manage task as projects. There are several ways to get around the lack of Project management in Toodledo and you will just need to find what makes sense to you. As Anders mentioned, that folders is another way but this becomes a major problem when dealing with that many. Because of the lack of Project control in Toodledo, it makes it really hard to implement GTD with it. I hope I don't have to leave and go with another service that implements projects because I really like everything else about toodledo. Play around with a couple of projects and see which method works best for you and then move forward. This message was edited Jun 01, 2009. |
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Proximo |
Great post by lite1. Just try out some methods at a small scale and then see what works best for you.
I do use the "Star" to mark all my Task that are designated Projects with subtask. I then use "Tags" and name the subtask by Project name to identify them on my main view or to use the Tag folder for quickly viewing all items of a particular Project. Keeping the subtask inside the parent task has disadvantages because Toodledo will not remind you when a due date is coming. Using subtask in Flat mode is the only way to be reminded and defeats the entire idea of how subtask should work. With the "Star" for my prject and "Tags" for my subtask. I manage to keep Projects working in Toodledo but it's still not something Toodledo does well. |
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TheGriff_2 |
@Lite1
Very good post...can't add much to it. I have to admit I'm not a huge fan of the status field though I suspect I'll have to become one eventually. In other words I've not used it much, so can't comment. To answer your question, yes my lists are a bit cluttered. @Proximo While I agree Toodledo is not a project manager I must say that it's not meant to be one. Sure it might be nice if they add those features but I wouldn't expect them to as toodledo is a todo manager. I'm also not sure that the parent/child task stuff that they've added isn't actually a basic project manager. What you want from a project management app is likely different from what I want which is different from what Molaris wants. In fact I would say that for me Toodledo manages projects the way I use projects in my every day life. I think this is a strong YMMV area. |
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Anders |
This may be pretty elementary to most users, but I am going to briefly go through the advantages/disadvantages of both types of system for anyone just coming in to Toodledo.
Tasks as Projects: -Frees up Folders to be used as areas of focus (ie Home, Work, School, etc.) -Allows you to assign notes, and other fields like Status, Priority, etc. to Projects themselves. -Projects can be created on the fly. Folders as Projects: -Frees up subtasks to be used as well... subtasks -Does not lead to any difficulty managing views. With the other method, some system (like Vin's star system) must be used to differentiate Projects so they are not confused with tasks in your lists. -Projects cannot be created on the fly. |
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Proximo |
@TheGriff
Just wanted to be fair and point something out about Toodledo. Griff, I understand your point and it's a valid one. I think the issue for many of us is that Toodledo is so flexible that many started to use it for GTD. If this was a user preference to use Toodledo in that way, I can see how the expectation for certain functions would be difficult for Toodledo to implement or consider. Toodledo advertised that GTD is something it can do and they even have a section dedicated to it. Because of this, many GTDers have tried Toodledo and for the most part we love it. Since Toodledo is the one advertising the use of GTD with their software, many GTDers are asking for features that are important for the GTD workflow. So this is where these request come from. I have no problem if Toodledo came out and said that they will no longer support or advertise the GTD workflow with their product. I would simply quit my subscription and find another GTD application or web service. If Toodledo is committed to their statements about GTD, then they need to listen to the customer request that are currently missing or not implemented fully. Projects in GTD are not managed like Projects in Microsoft Project, for example. Projects in GTD are simply task that require multiple steps and they are created and tracked similar to Task with subtask. Toodeldo has not implemented the support for these type of Projects in a way that is useful or simple to use. I assume most of the request from users in this area are based on GTD and Toodledo needs to let us know if they plan to continue GTD support and add the features we need or if they simply want to be known as a very flexible and functional "To Do List". That would help clear up the direction of where the service is going and make it easier for GTDers to stick with them or not. Just a point from all the GTDers in Toodledo. Toodledo is so close to having everything GTD requires and this is why so many of us are still here hoping to get these enhancements or improvements implemented. thanks |
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Proximo |
Posted by Anders:
This may be pretty elementary to most users, but I am going to briefly go through the advantages/disadvantages of both types of system for anyone just coming in to Toodledo. Tasks as Projects: -Frees up Folders to be used as areas of focus (ie Home, Work, School, etc.) -Allows you to assign notes, and other fields like Status, Priority, etc. to Projects themselves. -Projects can be created on the fly. Folders as Projects: -Frees up subtasks to be used as well... subtasks -Does not lead to any difficulty managing views. With the other method, some system (like Vin's star system) must be used to differentiate Projects so they are not confused with tasks in your lists. -Projects cannot be created on the fly. This is a good comparison. In either model, Projects are not easy to create and manage. For example: 1. The ability to create a task and assign it to a project on the fly. 2. The ability to use subtask as intended and not in Flat mode and still be informed of due dates. 3. The ability to have an area where Projects are managed as project without having a work around or using task related options like Star and Tag to identify them easier 4. The ability for Projects to show only the Next Action required to move it forward, per GTD as an option. 5. The ability to list a Project and manage context easily. etc, etc. |
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TheGriff_2 |
Posted by Proximo:
Just wanted to be fair and point something out about Toodledo. Griff, I understand your point and it's a valid one. I think the issue for many of us is that Toodledo is so flexible that many started to use it for GTD. Since Toodledo is the one advertising the use of GTD with their software, many GTDers are asking for features that are important for the GTD workflow. So this is where these request come from. FWIW I am a GTD'r too and I find TD to be perfectly fine for managing my lists. Again though I am taking a simple approach to GTD and using the technology in lieu of a bunch of sheets of paper. This is a good comparison. In either model, Projects are not easy to create and manage. For example: 1. The ability to create a task and assign it to a project on the fly. 2. The ability to use subtask as intended and not in Flat mode and still be informed of due dates. 3. The ability to have an area where Projects are managed as project without having a work around or using task related options like Star and Tag to identify them easier 4. The ability for Projects to show only the Next Action required to move it forward, per GTD as an option. 5. The ability to list a Project and manage context easily. Again I must disagree as I'm finding projects quite easy to create and manage. 1. TD just implemented the ability to add a subtask on the fly so I think you would agree this is moot. 2. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. For me, 95% of the time I want my project flattened so I only see the next actions due. 3. I put all my projects into the _Projects context. When I want to review I simply filter into _Projects and nest subtasks. I can also create a search specific to the project if I want to drill into one project specifically. 4. All of my tasks default to "Hold" and I hide deferred tasks except during _Projects review. When I complete a task I either make the next step a "Next Action" or do so during the next review of project status. To me this is no different than doing the same thing in a paper system though much quicker. I'll grant you TD could do something to make it even better but as is it follows GTD methodology. 5. Again, not sure what you mean by this. I sincerely do feel TD has everything needed to manage GTD. Too often in the software arena we get caught up with function(s) over form. I grant you there are things TD can do to improve project management but they are not things that must be done for them to continue their claim of GTD support. As is TD supports GTD well. Back in the late '90s I went to class on "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". Shortly after I got my first Palm PDA, Datebk3 and HanDBase. I remember spending 2 days setting up a system that had all the bells and whistles I could ever need. Then I realized the system was so complex it was unmanageable. The problem was I had built-in all these "nice to have" views that really made things more complex than they ever needed to be. Since that time I have ensured my designs remain simple as I know the desire to add features can take over and ruin a perfectly good piece of software. |
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Jake Toodledo Founder |
We do plan to continue to make improvements to more fully support GTD, while maintaining the flexibility for people who don't use GTD. More improvements to subtasks are on the horizon. Also, on-the-fly folder creation is on our to-do list.
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Proximo |
Thanks Toodledo
@TheGriff You have some good points and I appreciate you sharing your process with us. As I read through the forums, I find many different implementation strategies for making GTD work and it does work. This is why I am a Pro subscriber. But... Subtask are lacking the simplicity of how they should work. They should actually be SUBtask, meaning they should not be flattened and still update us on due dates, etc. Many users are using SubTask in flat mode because they require updates on subtask with due dates and they have no choice but to use the flat state. So they should be called Flat Task or something. Projects is something that we manage with techniques and work arounds, but they are not supported as standard Projects. A new user should be able to start using Toodledo and not look over 100 different ways to make Projects work. It should be user friendly as many other services have done. Toodledo just told us that they will continue to support the GTD work flow and have some enhancements coming. This is good news for everyone because good Project control is not specific to GTD but everyone. Thanks again to Toodledo and I want to thank "TheGriff" for sharing his ideas. I actually learned something from it and will make some tweaks to my setup. :-) |
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KeithStone |
I do use folders for projects. But when I say that, maybe I mean something different than others. I use folders to contain all the Next Actions for my projects, but not all my project plans. I plan the simple projects in TD--which means most of my projects. But for the more complex projects, I still use listpro, and just copy my next actions over to the TD project folder during my weekly review. I'm looking for another list/outliner tool that can make use of the TD email import, and which can work on my iPod Touch. But I haven't found it yet. Any ideas?
I have a pro account, but I don't use subtasks right now because my main interface to TD is through Pocket Informant on my iPod Touch, which doesn't handle subtsasks yet. Once I have subtasks, I can probably handle 95% of my project planning in TD. I'll still need to do the rest with another tool like I do now. The inability to create Folders on the fly has only been a minor nuisance to me. I do most of my work in PI, where I can create them on the fly. I have no trouble looking at large numbers of projects, personally. The tabbed view in TD isn't very useful with that many tabs. I just stay in the main view, and sort by folder or context. I'm not troubled by the inability to put priorities or due dates on my projects (as opposed to my tasks). I wouldn't bother even if I could. This message was edited Jun 03, 2009. |
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Anders |
Posted by Big KC:
I'm looking for another list/outliner tool that can make use of the TD email import, and which can work on my iPod Touch. But I haven't found it yet. Any ideas? I only know of two outliners that work with iPod Touch, Outliner and Zeptoliner. Both are fairly simplistic. Outliner seems a little nicer (more iPodish) and has a web interface (Zeptoliner may also, but I don't know). Also both can send via email, but only whole outlines, not individual rows. Edit: Just had this thought. Once Apple adds cut&paste for the iPod (very soon, I believe), assuming it is available in 3rd party apps, you would simply be able to copy from either of those straight to Toodledo, or PI which I believe you use. ~Anders This message was edited Jun 03, 2009. |
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TheGriff_2 |
@Proximo
I'm glad I've stirred some possible improvements to your system. I figure in the end that's what we're all here to do. |
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